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MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW (Read 3619 times)

Ed YaBB Moderator Offline Posts: 1696	MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Jul 20^th, 2009, 11:54am Wow! You guys better get one while you can, and thank Bermuda Bill for sending me one! Tell the guys at AudioLineOut (don't have number yet) Bermuda Bill sent you if you do order, please. Bill, if you are out here please post a link or number....you were right, WOW! Ed
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floobydust Member Offline AudiophileTalk Rules! Posts: 56	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #1 - Jul 20^th, 2009, 12:37pm So... tell me how you really feel? Maybe you can give us a little more detail once you have a chance to do more listening. Regards, KM
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killabermudian

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #2 - Jul 20^th, 2009, 3:37pm

Good Afternoon Ed,
Yes, I'm here. Glad to hear you are enjoying The Mini Watt even though she isn't broken in yet. I've got about 30 hours on mine so far. I did some research on replacement tubes and what I found was:The input tubes(6J1) can be exchanged withEF95,6AK5 or 5654.The output tubes(6P1)with 6P1P-EV Russian if any of this matters yet. Mini Watt can be purchased at: aloaudio(dot)com. Great response time and lightning fast delivery(US Postal)
Thanks,
Bill

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Ed

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #3 - Jul 20^th, 2009, 11:55pm

Bill, give us contact info!

Floob, It just sounds RIGHT. Been listening for several hours now. WOW is just about it, powerful accurate bass, silky highs and midrange.
Vinyl is crazy good using Hagerman Cornet phono stage.

PLENTY of "power" .....100db peaks at the couch on Carole King "Smackwater Jack"! Crazy. It sounded "smooth" and "correct".

I like this little amp a lot. And it is TINY.....if you built a box out of cd cases it would be bigger than the Miniwatt!

Ed

Designing a loudspeaker is very easy, building one that actually sounds good is much harder.

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jmudrick

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #4 - Jul 21^st, 2009, 4:17am

Ed wrote on Jul 20^th, 2009, 11:55pm:

PLENTY of "power" .....100db peaks at the couch on Carole King "Smackwater Jack"! Crazy....

Ed

Ed you gotta be the only guy on the planet who would even think playing Carole King at 100db was a good thing (Respect). Just to see what that was like I hit 90db on the same cut and that was plenty for this boy.

I've got a buddy bringing a Mini-Watt from HK next week so we'll be able to see how it matches up with my EM7/attenuators.

100db??

Jeff
Phnom Penh Audiophile Society

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VolleynBike Member Offline Simplicity is the most difficult of concepts Posts: 66	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #5 - Jul 21^st, 2009, 9:53am Ed, Is that with M3's or with singles? Marvin
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killabermudian Member Offline AudiophileTalk Rules! Posts: 23	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #6 - Jul 21^st, 2009, 8:59pm Good Evening Volleybike: I do not know what model Horns Ed is listening to with the Mini Watt, but I can tell you that my Mini Watt is driving the dog ____ out of my Hornshoppe Model 1's! Bill R.
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jmudrick Member Offline AudiophileTalk Rules! Posts: 18 Phnom Penh, Cambodia	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #7 - Jul 21^st, 2009, 9:57pm Any Glow or Carina comparisons? I still have time to get one from HK....
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stevef A Contributing Member Offline I love YaBB 1G - SP1! Posts: 1217 x1\|riverside\|USA\|USA\|361\|124\|IL,Illinois	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #8 - Jul 21^st, 2009, 10:02pm Well they are kinda' cute and come in a lot of colors. Comparisons anyone? Decware, Carina, Transcendent, etc. Steve
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Ed

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #9 - Jul 21^st, 2009, 10:28pm

Here's where "Bermuda Bill" got mine from.....
http://www.aloaudio.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_4&product...

The description they give is accurate......just add that with a speaker easy to drive and efficient like the Horns it kicks ass too!

Volley.....with the Horns.....will hook it up to "Gary's" M3's tomorrow before I box them up. I expect it to be spectacular with them as well.

The darn thing simply sounds good. Relaxed, smooth, tight and silky at the same time. I like it.

Ed
edit*** Guys I just listened to Madonna "Music" at 102 dB peaks I have not heard ANY and I mean ANY amp under 10 watts do that. The bass in the recording is so strong it usually clips the amp or "fuzzes" out her voice long before that volume. Oh, my solid state does it easily but that is a different story. I don't know how it does it nor do I care....the "bass" is DEEP and TIGHT and somehow this "2.5" watt amp just did the impossible. It also played the Blue Man Group "I feel Love" at the same level with the same clarity. Rosanne Cash? In the room, ditto Allison. Is it the "best amp in the world for the Horns"? I don't know and I doubt it but it is freakishly good and sounds like 20 watts. Drawbacks? One set of inputs and bananas only for speaker connection. That's it.....except of course how long will it last? darn, is it doing JUSTICE to Madonna as I type this!!!!!!!!

Designing a loudspeaker is very easy, building one that actually sounds good is much harder.

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VolleynBike

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #10 - Jul 22^nd, 2009, 12:17am

OK, anybody driving the thing straight from a cd player or something like a Squeezebox, with no pre-amp?

Don't own a pre-amp at the moment because i've been using my (heavily modified) Fisher 500c receiver, driven by a (heavily modified) Logitech Squeezebox Duet. I'm a little concerned that getting enough SPL out of the MiniWatt will require a pre-amp to drive it hard?

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Poultrygiest Member Offline AudiophileTalk Rules! Posts: 57	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #11 - Jul 22^nd, 2009, 6:32am So is the MiniWatt a better match for the horns than the Glow?
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nitpicker.

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #12 - Jul 22^nd, 2009, 8:12am

VolleynBike wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2009, 12:17am:

OK, anybody driving the thing straight from a cd player or something like a Squeezebox, with no pre-amp?

Don't own a pre-amp at the moment because i've been using my (heavily modified) Fisher 500c receiver, driven by a (heavily modified) Logitech Squeezebox Duet. I'm a little concerned that getting enough SPL out of the MiniWatt will require a pre-amp to drive it hard?

I'm asking this out of curiosity. What defines "heavily modified"? I've heard modified this, modified that but now I'm seeing "heavily modified" more often. What's that all about? Is it a modification to the point where it's no longer sonically recognizable as factory stock or is there a percentage of physical alteration it must go through to be called that? Some lowdown on this would help. Thanks.

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Ed

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #13 - Jul 22^nd, 2009, 8:39am

Hey Nit, you are gonna love my reply to Volley.....

Hey Volley, I am using my "heavily modified" (no sarcasm intended!) Pioneer CD player as the source. Volume is NOT an issue.

I say heavily modified because it really is! It has an added (fancy) power supply to feed the added output stage that feeds one set of audio out jacks. The other set is what the thing came with. I am not quite sure of the output level but it is not overly high....the added output stage is the same as the stock for all practical. purposes......and both are the same as my Aragon D2A2 DAC.
One thing is for sure a look under the hood and there is no doubt it's been "heavily worked on"! And the "new" audio section does in fact sound better than the one it comes with.

I see no reason a pre amp would be needed.

Hope this helps!
Ed
yes, I do like it better than the Glow.....it does not have a useless USB hole and that alone makes it better in my book. And the volume knob stays one color too.....and....it's half the price!

Designing a loudspeaker is very easy, building one that actually sounds good is much harder.

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nitpicker.

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #14 - Jul 22^nd, 2009, 9:13am

Ed wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2009, 8:39am:

One thing is for sure a look under the hood and there is no doubt it's been "heavily worked on"! And the "new" audio section does in fact sound better than the one it comes with.

Ok, so it's the visual aspect that separates "heavily modified" from "modified" or even "lightly modified". Got it. Wink

Wink

I thought it was just another marketing lingo.

Ed wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2009, 8:39am:

I say heavily modified because it really is! It has an added (fancy) power supply to feed the added output stage that feeds one set of audio out jacks.

Next, what defines "fancy" part? Is it a part that costs certain percentage more than the stock or is it a ....

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VolleynBike

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #15 - Jul 22^nd, 2009, 10:55am

Ed, thanks i may just have to break down and try one then. Any idea how it compares with some of the other cheap chinese amps that are talked about in this forum like the musical paradise, etc?

Nit, good question! We'd better make sure we have this tightly defined, otherwise anarchy will ensue! Wink

Wink

Possible answers: The "modification"

Added extra weight?
Was truly audible?
Wasn't just your "average" modification?
Were too many to count?
Is too esoteric for likes of you to understand, so don't ask me to explain?
Is better than "Your modification"?
It is a "special" modification (so put on your helmet)?
You'll have to send your unit in along with $659 to find out?
Must have bullets to do it justice?

Ok, here's how i justify using "heavily" on my couple of modifications.
Fisher 500c:

It took me 4 months to do.
Ripped out the old power supply and built a whole new one (except xfmr).
Replaced probably 30 caps and 10 resistors. The WHOLE receiver is point to point , so not easy to do.
Added a handful of circuit modifacations.
With the covers back on you can't see any of what i did. It still looks like the same piece of crap that had been sitting in my brother's garage for the past half century.
But BOY are the mods audible! Awesome transparency, sound stage, imaging, etc.

Logitech Squeezebox Duet:

There's probably only 3 people on the planet who've done these mods.
It took me 2 days, literally working under a soldering microscope to do these (first time i've ever done that! %-)
Wow what a change! It was very nice before, now the music doesn't come from the speakers anymore - it literally sounds like the sound floats in the room!
This thing sounds better than several "Heavily Modified" dedicated CD players and DAC's i've built in the past. And it's so tiny and inexpensive it's absurd. The mods only cost me $27 in parts.

And there you have it folks. "Heavily" !!!

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nitpicker.

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #16 - Jul 22^nd, 2009, 11:28am

VolleynBike wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2009, 10:55am:

otherwise anarchy will ensue! Wink

Wink

I think you've just initiated it and here's why.

Quote:

Possible answers: The "modification"

Added extra weight?
Was truly audible?
Wasn't just your "average" modification?
Were too many to count?
Is too esoteric for likes of you to understand, so don't ask me to explain?
Is better than "Your modification"?
It is a "special" modification (so put on your helmet)?
You'll have to send your unit in along with $659 to find out?
Must have bullets to do it justice?

You are calling them possible answers but they are all questions. Huh

Huh

Quote:

Ok, here's how i justify using "heavily" on my couple of modifications.
Fisher 500c:

It took me 4 months to do.
Ripped out the old power supply and built a whole new one (except xfmr).
Replaced probably 30 caps and 10 resistors. The WHOLE receiver is point to point , so not easy to do.
Added a handful of circuit modifacations.
With the covers back on you can't see any of what i did. It still looks like the same piece of crap that had been sitting in my brother's garage for the past half century.
But BOY are the mods audible! Awesome transparency, sound stage, imaging, etc.

4 months to do it is fine but what does that mean? I've had one project that took me 6 months due to my work schedule. It was a minor change though.
Replacing an old power supply with a same one but newer isn't really a modification, is it?
Handful of circuit modifications, ok, now we are getting somewhere.
The external appearance, no modification there so why bring it up?
The audibility of modification, in this particular case, how can you compare it to the way it may have been when the unit was new in its stock form?

Quote:

Logitech Squeezebox Duet:

There's probably only 3 people on the planet who've done these mods.
It took me 2 days, literally working under a soldering microscope to do these (first time i've ever done that! %-)
Wow what a change! It was very nice before, now the music doesn't come from the speakers anymore - it literally sounds like the sound floats in the room!
This thing sounds better than several "Heavily Modified" dedicated CD players and DAC's i've built in the past. And it's so tiny and inexpensive it's absurd. The mods only cost me $27 in parts.

Wait a minute, are we getting into yet another modification class? Lets see, if it sounds better than several "Heavily Modified", should it be called "extremely modified"?

Quote:

And there you have it folks. "Heavily" !!!

Huh

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VolleynBike Member Offline Simplicity is the most difficult of concepts Posts: 66	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #17 - Jul 22^nd, 2009, 11:54am Nit, Your moniker is so apt!
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Cheerwino Seasoned Member Offline AudiophileTalk Rules! Posts: 173	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #18 - Jul 22^nd, 2009, 3:39pm Has this thread been "modified" or "heavily modified"?
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udntcme New Member Offline AudiophileTalk Rules! Posts: 7	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #19 - Jul 22^nd, 2009, 3:59pm ed, the 6moons review said the amp was "lit up" like a decware amp. does the signature of the minwatt lean to the bright side? i'm asking as a fan of that classic dht sound. thx
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floobydust

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #20 - Jul 22^nd, 2009, 4:24pm

I guess one might say everything is relative in the world of modifications. No real tangible anything as a description of what was done versus what you would call it. In the past 35+ years I've done "modifications" to almost anything and everything I've owned, not just audio gear either.

One can easily claim something has been modified if you change one part to either a different value or different brand from the stock part. Granted this is very very minor, yet many still consider it a modification. Heavily modified could imply nothing more than you changed out all of the parts with different brands or values to achieve a perceived change in operation and/or performance.

In most cases, I would not consider "easter egging" parts as a modification as the design has not been altered, you simply changed one brand of part for another... not really a modification at all. When you start to redesign the circuitry, that counts as more of a modification as it's no longer as the original designer intended. Whether it's better or worse can be subjective or backed up with some level of measurement data. Anything beyond calling it "modified" is simply relative to the person who did the work... i.e., the longer it takes them the more heavily modified it becomes perhaps.

Back in the 70's I did changes to many a Dynaco PAS preamp and other gear as people wanted metal films in place if carbon comp resistors and "better" coupling capacitors, etc. Was it really a modification?? To them yes... the more that was changed, the more it was modified. But again, the definition is fuzzy here and only you can decide what it implies for you.

Regards, KM

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Ed

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #21 - Jul 22^nd, 2009, 7:00pm

udntcme,
The thing is anything but "bright". It is simply "right".....not sure what they meant in the review.....

Hey Nit,
I must not have been clear....my Pioneer had a power supply and audio section added on the inside that it did not come with. That's what I meant by "easy to see". This is pretty much a "real" modification in my opinion since the thing has a complete (including power supply) audio section added to it to replace the on board circuitry. Except the old circuit is still there also, feeding a pair of RCA's. And again, the "new" audio section does indeed sound better than the unmodified circuit.

Wait a minute.......maybe mine isn't "modified" maybe it is "circuitry enhanced" since it contains a complete new audio section (including power supply) and this is a new addition and not really a "modification" of the existing circuit....hmmmmm.........

Ed

Designing a loudspeaker is very easy, building one that actually sounds good is much harder.

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VolleynBike

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #22 - Jul 22^nd, 2009, 8:05pm

Ok, this is getting silly!

Were some parts changed, one brand or type for another? Yes.
Were some failed parts exchanged? Yes.
Were some values changed? Yes.
Were some operating levels/ranges changed? Yes.
Was some circuitry, that wasn't there before, added? Yes.
Was some circuitry, that was there before, removed? Yes.
Is the result that it sounds "different"? Yes.
Is the result that it sounds "better"? Hehe... that's a trap question, but the answer is "You betcha!"

So which is it? "Modified"? "Heavily Modified"? "Extremely Modified"? "Easter Egged"? "Circuitry Enhanced"?

Whatever! I need a beer...

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proud_indian My System: 84C, Vcap, CCE, Zkit 4 &5, Lowthers, Z Box, Power iso and the rest. A Contributing Member Offline Posts: 1236 x1\|Chennai\|India\|Asia\|223\|349\|	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #23 - Jul 22^nd, 2009, 8:52pm VolleynBike wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2009, 8:05pm: Ok, this is getting silly! My God!!!! It took you all such a long time!!! Thinking about what Nit says is a waste of time, replying to his post well......... shreekant
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killabermudian Member Offline AudiophileTalk Rules! Posts: 23	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #24 - Jul 22^nd, 2009, 9:23pm It sounds like abuNch of iNNERNATE cowboys. BUY THE darn $229.00 AMPLIFIER! PEACE AND LOVE, BILL
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jmudrick Member Offline AudiophileTalk Rules! Posts: 18 Phnom Penh, Cambodia	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #25 - Jul 22^nd, 2009, 11:40pm fyi, if you happen to be passing through Hong Kong they can be had for $200. My friend will buy 2.
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giorgino

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #26 - Jul 23^rd, 2009, 3:13am

Great news Ed - Thanks for the post. We're in a lucky time where there are so many inexpensive hifi toys out there. Not only bargains but good sounding ones. No doubt there'll also be the dogs but I guess that's part of the fun...The search and the discussions on forums.

I recently bought myself a $200 Valab NOS DAC for kicks and grins. I was also hoping to get an alternate sounding (less transparent) to my Marantz CD7 to play poorly recorded CDs. Well, it's not bad at all... Not the CD7 but very nice sounding and not at all veiled or soft. Still early days yet (1 week) but pretty good for a cheap DAC.

Keep up with the good work posting!

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nitpicker. Senior Member Offline Posts: 857 Decware home state (Illinois)	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #27 - Jul 23^rd, 2009, 9:19am VolleynBike wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2009, 8:05pm: Whatever! I need a beer... So you weren't prepared to discuss what you brought up. That's unfortunate. It sure sounds cool though, "my modified" amp, CD player or preamp...etc. It carries a feeling of certain status.
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nitpicker. Senior Member Offline Posts: 857 Decware home state (Illinois)	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #28 - Jul 23^rd, 2009, 9:24am giorgino wrote on Jul 23^rd, 2009, 3:13am: I was also hoping to get an alternate sounding (less transparent) to my Marantz CD7 to play poorly recorded CDs. Are you serious?
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VolleynBike Member Offline Simplicity is the most difficult of concepts Posts: 66	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #29 - Jul 23^rd, 2009, 10:27am Quote: So you weren't prepared to discuss what you brought up. That's unfortunate. Discuss is one thing. Nitpick is another. Different intentions. Different tone.
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SirSpeedy Member Offline AudiophileTalk Rules! Posts: 21	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #30 - Jul 23^rd, 2009, 11:06am Do you think the MiniWatt would benefit from brass feet and added weight atop the amp? Also, are upgraded interconnects beneficial? I don't want to underestimate the quality of the MiniWatt just because of it's price, but I also question if $100 interconnects are overkill. What are your guys thoughts.
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nitpicker. Senior Member Offline Posts: 857 Decware home state (Illinois)	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #31 - Jul 23^rd, 2009, 12:11pm SirSpeedy wrote on Jul 23^rd, 2009, 11:06am: Also, are upgraded interconnects beneficial? Not unless your current one is malfunctioning. Google search on these subjects can yield detailed answers.
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Cheerwino Seasoned Member Offline AudiophileTalk Rules! Posts: 173	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #32 - Jul 23^rd, 2009, 1:28pm $100 per inch, right?
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pardales Member Offline AudiophileTalk Rules! Posts: 44	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #33 - Jul 23^rd, 2009, 6:39pm Just got a Miniwatt in today but will not be able to listen to it until the end of next week due to travel. After I have spent a week with it I will report.
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giorgino

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #34 - Jul 23^rd, 2009, 6:59pm

SirSpeedy wrote on Jul 23^rd, 2009, 11:06am:

Do you think the MiniWatt would benefit from brass feet and added weight atop the amp? Also, are upgraded interconnects beneficial? I don't want to underestimate the quality of the MiniWatt just because of it's price, but I also question if $100 interconnects are overkill. What are your guys thoughts.

Through the years, I've spent the equivalent price of a small car on my hifi system. I also spend more hours per month enjoying my music than driving a car, so, for me, the hifi is good value. I've got buddies who spend more than $100 in an evening at a bar drinking alcohol - no doubt that's good value for them....so I think a little perspective is in order.

Get them on loan. Try them and if you hear a difference and prefer them, then they're beneficial. Otherwise, they're not....

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giorgino Ex Member	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #35 - Jul 23^rd, 2009, 7:01pm nitpicker. wrote on Jul 23^rd, 2009, 9:24am: Are you serious? Bye Nit
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nitpicker.

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #36 - Jul 23^rd, 2009, 8:39pm

giorgino wrote on Jul 23^rd, 2009, 7:01pm:

nitpicker. wrote on Jul 23^rd, 2009, 9:24am:

Are you serious?

Bye Nit

So you weren't serious then and still not serious now.

giorgino wrote on Apr 30^th, 2009, 5:14pm:

nitpicker. wrote on Apr 30^th, 2009, 5:06pm:

You sure have a lot to say even after said to be done talking to me.

I'm done now Wink

Wink

Seriously, question #1, you would spend money to degrade transparency (at least attempted to)? Question #2, you relied on DAC to do just that?

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giorgino

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #37 - Jul 24^th, 2009, 2:23am

nitpicker. wrote on Jul 23^rd, 2009, 8:39pm:

giorgino wrote on Jul 23^rd, 2009, 7:01pm:

nitpicker. wrote on Jul 23^rd, 2009, 9:24am:

Are you serious?

Bye Nit

So you weren't serious then and still not serious now.

giorgino wrote on Apr 30^th, 2009, 5:14pm:

nitpicker. wrote on Apr 30^th, 2009, 5:06pm:

You sure have a lot to say even after said to be done talking to me.

I'm done now Wink

Wink

Seriously, question #1, you would spend money to degrade transparency (at least attempted to)? Question #2, you relied on DAC to do just that?

Okay Nit - I'm going to take it that you are asking the question in good faith and not just being argumentative.

I have a CD-only system that I'm happy with. It is as transparent (whatever that means) as I want it to be with enough liquidity to make a tube freak happy. On good CDs the music sounds great. On poor recordings, the system does nothing to help it.

Assuming that there is such a thing as hifi components having different sonic signatures and it is desirable to have this at different times, it would make sense to have a second (or more) component to be able to present the poor recordings in a better way. It's not only just a reduction in transparency that I'm seeking but a change in the presentation of the sound of poorer recordings - whatever that means.

Areas to investigate can be:
a) Different system
b) Changing speakers
c) Getting tone controls
d) Changing preamp
e) Get a Z-Box
f) Second CDP
g) Change cables
h) Graphic equalizer
h) tube roll

No doubt there are other possible solutions. For my situation, the DAC is a perfectly valid solution:
a) It is a compact source component without the need of a transport
b) Convenient (just switch input on the amp)
c) no need to switch off system to change sound (like tube rolling)
d) Cheaper than buying a 2nd CDP
e) No rewiring needed
f) Discreet (does alter the signature of the rest of the system)

Look if the use of the term "transparent" within the context of the post rankles you, I'm happy to substitute that for, "more forgiving", "less clinical", "softer", "more musical" etc. Wink

Wink

George

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floobydust

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #38 - Jul 24^th, 2009, 6:54am

Hi George,

If you have a CD playback system you're happy with then I would suggest sticking with that and then trying another (aka less expensive) solution to deal with your "less than acceptable" media. As is well known many early digital transfers to CD were pretty bad, but that's more of a transfer/mastering issue and not a poor recording. Then again there are many new CD releases which are even worse IMHO as they used far too many digital processing tools to maximize the levels, increase punch and simply just "fill up" the digital data with stuff.... these I actually find more annoying.

In any case, you might want to look at having a "slew limited" tube stage which might help mask some of the annoying bits (pun intended) as spending more time to locate and try various components to see if they accomplish what you're trying to do. Just a thought....

Regards, KM

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Doorman A Contributing Member Offline "pouring from the empty into the void" Posts: 1368 x1\|Royston\|Canada\|Canada\|48\|35	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #39 - Jul 24^th, 2009, 9:48am Careful, George- You may be a little charitable with your above assumption! Don
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nitpicker.

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #40 - Jul 24^th, 2009, 10:45am

giorgino wrote on Jul 24^th, 2009, 2:23am:

I have a CD-only system that I'm happy with. It is as transparent (whatever that means) as I want it to be with enough liquidity to make a tube freak happy. On good CDs the music sounds great. On poor recordings, the system does nothing to help it.

Transparency, in electronic audio terms, we would agreed that it's the integrity of the sound from its source to end user. How one can compare the original source to their system would be a whole another discussion.

Quote:

Areas to investigate can be:
a) Different system
b) Changing speakers
c) Getting tone controls
d) Changing preamp
e) Get a Z-Box
f) Second CDP
g) Change cables
h) Graphic equalizer
h) tube roll

a) Sure, but overkill.
b) Probably one of the most effective solution but still overkill.
c) Good idea but you may want the one with bypass button so you can switch at ease.
d) It can be a solution too but still overkill just for some CDs you have.
e) Same idea as d) but you've considered it to make your system less transparent? Wait till Steve Deckert reads your post.
f) Possible if you can find a vintage CD player. It's still a crapshoot.
g) Waste of time and money.
h) Just about the same idea as c).
i) Same answer as d) but what a pain to change, not to mention the ware on the pin and tube socket.

What about
j) Different release CD?
That would be even cheaper and more convenient unless it's such a rare release.

Quote:

Look if the use of the term "transparent" within the context of the post rankles you, I'm happy to substitute that for, "more forgiving", "less clinical", "softer", "more musical" etc.

It would help the focus of discussion if you can decide on something and go with it.

In the end, you didn't get what you were looking for. There are ways to deal with it that can get you the results you want. Relying on DAC isn't one of them as shown by your own post.

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VolleynBike Member Offline Simplicity is the most difficult of concepts Posts: 66	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #41 - Jul 24^th, 2009, 2:14pm George, I agree with Don.
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giorgino

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #42 - Jul 24^th, 2009, 7:10pm

Doorman wrote on Jul 24^th, 2009, 9:48am:

Careful, George- You may be a little charitable with your above assumption!
Don

VolleynBike wrote on Jul 24^th, 2009, 2:14pm:

George,I agree with Don.

Thanks for the support Guys. Under normal circumstances I would totally agree with you. At least this time we appear to be having a dialogue of sorts and Nit has presented suggestions and points of his own. I can live with that!

floobydust wrote on Jul 24^th, 2009, 6:54am:

Hi George,

If you have a CD playback system you're happy with then I would suggest sticking with that and then trying another (aka less expensive) solution to deal with your "less than acceptable" media..... you might want to look at having a "slew limited" tube stage which might help mask some of the annoying bits (pun intended) as spending more time to locate and try various components to see if they accomplish what you're trying to do. Just a thought....
Regards, KM

Thanks for the suggestion, KM. A recommendation would be gratefully received. My main reason for going the DAC route is to be able to achieve another sonic signature without putting a component in the signal chain of the main system. It's function is totally discreet from the rest of the system (ie my system will sound the same whether my DAC is switched on or off unlike a tube stage).

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giorgino

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #43 - Jul 24^th, 2009, 7:47pm

nitpicker. wrote on Jul 24^th, 2009, 10:45am:

How one can compare the original source to their system would be a whole another discussion.

Agreed

Quote:

a) Sure, but overkill.
b) Probably one of the most effective solution but still overkill.
c) Good idea but you may want the one with bypass button so you can switch at ease.
d) It can be a solution too but still overkill just for some CDs you have.
e) Same idea as d) but you've considered it to make your system less transparent? Wait till Steve Deckert reads your post.
f) Possible if you can find a vintage CD player. It's still a crapshoot.
g) Waste of time and money.
h) Just about the same idea as c).
i) Same answer as d) but what a pain to change, not to mention the ware on the pin and tube socket.

What about
j) Different release CD?
That would be even cheaper and more convenient unless it's such a rare release.

Agree with most of your observations - hence not following up on them.
c) d) e) h) Bypass is still not the same as the component being entirely out of the signal path of the main system. My DAC is switched in and out as a separate source and does not affect the main system.
f) Better buying a DAC - especially when the DAC is cheaper and my CDP can double as a high quality transport (2x digital outs) - additionally comparisons can then purely on DAC stage (assuming cables do not make a difference).
j) That would be true if I had 10 problem CDs. Assuming they are available, you still have the trial and error of finding out whether the alternate release is in fact better sounding. I have a modest 900 CDs - even if 20% sounded crappy, I would potentially be replacing up to 180 CDs. Not a cheaper solution to my $200 DAC and certainly a lot more troublesome. (C'mon Nit - you know I'm right!)

Quote:

It would help the focus of discussion if you can decide on something and go with it.

DISTINCTION: Not "the focus of discussion". It's the focus of "YOUR" discussion. The focus of "MY" discussion was on the availability of good sounding inexpensive audio equipment. You chose to obsess on a term I have no allegiance with. The fixation is yours not mine.

Quote:

In the end, you didn't get what you were looking for. There are ways to deal with it that can get you the results you want. Relying on DAC isn't one of them as shown by your own post.

Glad to see you came to that conclusion earlier than I have.... Wink

Wink

giorgino wrote on Jul 23^rd, 2009, 3:13am:

... Well, it's not bad at all... Not the CD7 but very nice sounding and not at all veiled or soft. Still early days yet (1 week) but pretty good for a cheap DAC.

Hey Nit - the bottom line is that I have more than enough audio quality in my system for my listening needs. Most of us on this forum do. All I'm doing when buying the DAC is playing and discovering. Inexpensive kit like the Miniwatt and the VALAB allows me to indulge in such silliness. I don't "NEED" an new audio component. I want one just for something different. It's a new listening experience and if it fulfills what I hoped it would do, then great - if not I'll either keep it for its own sake or sell it on eBay. Some days I like chocolate cake, other days I might want lemon cheesecake. It's no more profound than that.

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proud_indian My System: 84C, Vcap, CCE, Zkit 4 &5, Lowthers, Z Box, Power iso and the rest. A Contributing Member Offline Posts: 1236 x1\|Chennai\|India\|Asia\|223\|349\|	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #44 - Jul 24^th, 2009, 9:33pm I think we need a "support forum" for Nit. ....... For him to support what he to say/tell. shreekant
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killabermudian

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #45 - Jul 24^th, 2009, 11:05pm

Hi Poultrygiest: Hell Yes! The MiniWatt is better than The Glow.
I sold my Glow about 2 months ago.The Glow sounds blow-ted.
I have owned my Model Ones almost 9 years now and have been through so many S.E.T . amplificatiton situations that it is pathetic.
I discovered the MiniWatt from six moons audio and then I made a move. Why not give it a chance with the incredible Hornshoppe Horns?
I ordered one, spent about 14 minutes listening to the unit, and then called Ed to tell him that I believe there could be a match made in sonic heaven. (only with the Hornshoppe speakers mind you) I do own a pair of Omega Super 3's in the bathroom system. I mean the bedroom system.Did I say the bathroom system? Anyway, $229.00
is what some of you have paid for ic's, speaker cables,electric bills,
power cords,gasoline, if you drive an 18 wheeler,and so on. Take that plunge and buy a MiniWatt especially if you own a pair of Hornshoppe Model One's like I do. Thank you for taking the time out to read this post.
Bill Roberts

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nitpicker.

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #46 - Jul 25^th, 2009, 12:29am

giorgino wrote on Jul 24^th, 2009, 7:47pm:

Bypass is still not the same as the component being entirely out of the signal path of the main system.

Sonically it is. There are audio gears with bypass feature that really does.

Quote:

Better buying a DAC - especially when the DAC is cheaper and my CDP can double as a high quality transport (2x digital outs) - additionally comparisons can then purely on DAC stage (assuming cables do not make a difference).

Although not many nowadays, some DACs are made to add coloration to sound. Once you buy it, you are stuck with it, or you get rid of it at a loss. I would suggest a side by side comparison with level matched between your Valab and Marantz CD7. Let someone else do the switching while not letting you know which one is on and see what happens.

Quote:

All I'm doing when buying the DAC is playing and discovering. Inexpensive kit like the Miniwatt and the VALAB allows me to indulge in such silliness. I don't "NEED" an new audio component. I want one just for something different. It's a new listening experience and if it fulfills what I hoped it would do, then great - if not I'll either keep it for its own sake or sell it on eBay. Some days I like chocolate cake, other days I might want lemon cheesecake. It's no more profound than that.

In your case, I would suggest an equalizer. There are many with bypass feature.
You don't have to play and discover. You can play the way you want.

Quote:

I have a modest 900 CDs - even if 20% sounded crappy.

So what percentage is it in reality?

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giorgino

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #47 - Jul 25^th, 2009, 3:59am

nitpicker. wrote on Jul 25^th, 2009, 12:29am:

So what percentage is it in reality?

I dunno and I've no motivation to count my collection to find out the exact figures. If it helps, heres a guesstimate:
a) "Audiophile" and good sounding commercial CDs — 30%
b) Moderately okay sounding CDs — 30%
c) Bad — 20%
d) Really crappy old ones (like old The Cure and Souxsie / Banshee stuff and cheapo stuff I bought secondhand) — 20%
My kit has been set up to cope with a) + b) pretty well without over compromising the sound of the a)'s. Trying to accommodate the c)'s and d)'s IMO starts to compromise the a)'s.

Quote:

In your case, I would suggest an equalizer. There are many with bypass feature.
You don't have to play and discover. You can play the way you want.

Thanks for that Nit. You may have an idea...I could use the Valab as a second source and connect an equaliser to it. Ideally, it would not take up a complete rack width and possibly tubed. In your travels, do you remember Steve doing a tubed tone control box that allows you to dial in the sound to one's taste? I thought he did...

Any ideas guys...? (and sorry for getting this thread heavily modified)

Alternatively, I could modify my listening behavior. Do my critical / active listening with the good sounding stuff and just do background listening with the other stuff (like cooking in the kitchen and playing on the PC) .... Cheesy

Cheesy

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giorgino Ex Member	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #48 - Jul 25^th, 2009, 7:30am Looks interesting... oops more toys!
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nitpicker.

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #49 - Jul 25^th, 2009, 8:17am

giorgino wrote on Jul 25^th, 2009, 3:59am:

I could use the Valab as a second source and connect an equaliser to it.

Connect it to your Marantz. It won't hurt anything when bypass is on (assuming it's available). But try the comparison I mentioned earlier just for kicks and grins.

If you are willing to "playing and discovering" with DAC costing $200, why not do it with something cheaper like CDs instead?

By the way, relatively new members (in the grand scheme of this forum's history) like Doorman and VolleynBike having to advise you on how to reply to another member, must make you feel little, no?

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giorgino

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #50 - Jul 25^th, 2009, 8:29am

nitpicker. wrote on Jul 25^th, 2009, 8:17am:

giorgino wrote on Jul 25^th, 2009, 3:59am:

I could use the Valab as a second source and connect an equaliser to it.

Connect it to your Marantz. It won't hurt anything when bypass is on (assuming it's available). But try the comparison I mentioned earlier just for kicks and grins.

If you are willing to "playing and discovering" with DAC costing $200, why not do it with something cheaper like CDs instead?

Will do thanks

Quote:

By the way, relatively new members (in the grand scheme of this forum's history) like Doorman and VolleynBike having to advise you on how to reply to another member, must make you feel little, no?

Erm, actually, no I don't. I'm happy to listen to useful advice from anyone. What I then decide to do and when I do it remains my choosing. The thought didn't even occur to me. The fact that it did for you says a lot more about you than me.

Besides Nit, I thought you were a man of logic? Doorman and VolleynBike might be relatively new members to this forum. That fact, however, bears no relationship to their actual experience in the real world, their knowledge of how to conduct oneself or their ability to judge character. Wink

Wink

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Luvdemhorns

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #51 - Jul 25^th, 2009, 12:00pm

WOW is right! Just received my silver Miniwatt today. I'm a Hornshoppe owner of about 16 months (Hey Ed, I'm the guy with the macassar ebony finish speakers purchased from the guy in GA!) I'm Carina user (9 months), Decware ZCD player (about 1 year), and solid-core silver connections (Clear Day speaker single speaker wires, and about 40 hours on the new Clear Day IC's with Eichmann copper RCAs) , and MAC power cord.
Out of the box, within the first 10 minutes I'm shaking my head. The clarity and openness is immediate, with no harshness. Quiet. Smoooth yet very revealing. Ed is right...it SOUNDS right! Bass is not quite as focused...but I'll reinsert my Decware ICs to check because I notice the Clear Day ICS did reduce the bass a little.
I already order (same day I ordered the Miniwatt) the 5463 and 6P1P-EV tubes from Triode to substitute the stock 6J1 and 6P1 tubes. Should be here today or Monday. Lots of talk on the web about how much better the 5463 is over the 6J1....will see if it applies in this unit.Meanwhile, I'll put more hours on the unit and the CHinese tube...but this is GOOD! No, this is GREAT. I may learn to work with only one input

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Luvdemhorns Member Offline AudiophileTalk Rules! Posts: 29	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #52 - Jul 25^th, 2009, 12:15pm I meant to say I ordered a 5654 to replace the 6J1!
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SirSpeedy Member Offline AudiophileTalk Rules! Posts: 21	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #53 - Jul 25^th, 2009, 3:35pm I was unable to locate Triode in the member directory. How can I contact Triode to purchase the upgraded tubes for the Miniwatt? I just received my Miniwatt in the mail today and can't wait to receive my Horns and see what all the fuss is about!
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Henry

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #54 - Jul 25^th, 2009, 5:41pm

SirSpeedy wrote on Jul 25^th, 2009, 3:35pm:

I was unable to locate Triode in the member directory. How can I contact Triode to purchase the upgraded tubes for the Miniwatt? I just received my Miniwatt in the mail today and can't wait to receive my Horns and see what all the fuss is about!

Hey SirSpeedy,
I think he may have been talking about Triode Electronics, but I'm not certain. Wink

Wink

I hope you enjoy the Horns and the new amp.

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nitpicker.

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #55 - Jul 25^th, 2009, 8:16pm

giorgino wrote on Jul 25^th, 2009, 8:29am:

Erm, actually, no I don't. I'm happy to listen to useful advice from anyone. What I then decide to do and when I do it remains my choosing.

Just curious, do you flip a coin and go by what turns out? In other words, what do you base it on when deciding what is useful advice and what isn't regarding electronic audio gears?

Quote:

The thought didn't even occur to me. The fact that it did for you says a lot more about you than me.

Bit of extra thinking may go a long way.

Quote:

Besides Nit, I thought you were a man of logic? Doorman and VolleynBike might be relatively new members to this forum. That fact, however, bears no relationship to their actual experience in the real world, their knowledge of how to conduct oneself or their ability to judge character. Wink

Wink

In general (not necessarily related to the subject in discussion), it's not hard to tell about the person by the content of one's post on internet forum. At least not for me.

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VolleynBike

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #56 - Jul 25^th, 2009, 9:14pm

Quote:

it's not hard to tell about the person by the content of one's post on internet forum. At least not for me.

I've found that in any cross section of people there's always a very small percentage that seem to be the ones that make things go flat. These forums are a prime example. People like this put on a pretense of "logic", "discussion", "careful thinking", etc. But if you observe carefully, it all seems to just be some sort of underhanded attempt to undo whatever others may be saying or doing.

They pull apart every little inconsequential statement by trying to pull you into "proving it", or trying to get you to change your wording, or trying to give some argument as to how it couldn't be, etc. These tend to be the most exasperating interactions. At least until people spot it for what it is.

And interesting enough, these people never really have anything constructive to say or add themselves. They seem to thrive on undoing what is said by people who DO have something constructive to contribute, or have actually accomplished something.

They just carp and criticize, usually covertly. And they make so little sense themselves that people get sucked into "helping them understand". Which inevitably is a wasted effort. They never really do, in fact it just starts the whole cycle over again.

End of editorial. Back to the subject at hand:

Ok, I'm in. I'm going to get one.

Luvdemhorns, i'll be very interested in hearing about your experience with tube rolling. I've generally found Chinese tubes to not be the best. But who knows they may be getting better at it...

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opnly_bafld

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #57 - Jul 25^th, 2009, 9:33pm

nitpicker. wrote on Jul 25^th, 2009, 8:16pm:

In general (not necessarily related to the subject in discussion), it's not hard to tell about the person by the content of one's post on internet forum. At least not for me.

You think you know.
That can be a problem for people like you.
How others perceive us is usually more honest/accurate than our own self examination. Grin

Grin

Edit- V..Bike beat me to it (he covered the long version and I handled the short version).

Now back to the MINIWATT

Sooo...Ed, should I sell my Carina and get one of these Miniwatt jobbies? Wink

Wink

Lin

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floobydust Member Offline AudiophileTalk Rules! Posts: 56	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #58 - Jul 25^th, 2009, 10:03pm Well, I just ordered a Mini-Watt as well... I can't even buy parts to build a decent amp for the equivalent funds... worth trying out.... or as a "stocking stuffer" for later. Regards, KM
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VolleynBike Member Offline Simplicity is the most difficult of concepts Posts: 66	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #59 - Jul 25^th, 2009, 10:07pm floobydust wrote on Jul 25^th, 2009, 10:03pm: Well, I just ordered a Mini-Watt as well... I can't even buy parts to build a decent amp for the equivalent funds... worth trying out.... or as a "stocking stuffer" for later. Boy, and i'll bet it'll actually fit in a stocking!!
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giorgino Ex Member	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #60 - Jul 25^th, 2009, 10:23pm The miniwatt is just at a crazy small price. I don't know how they do it. I suspect with sufficient popularity, they'll raise their price or stop making it and launch a more expensive model on the market. I'm out for the moment. No doubt curiosity will get the better of me...
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Luvdemhorns

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #61 - Jul 25^th, 2009, 10:28pm

Sir Speedy,

Yes, I ordered the tubes from Triode Electronics. Ordered them on Wed but the order has not been processed yet. Must be on vacation. I dont know if they would be an "upgrade" within the Miniwatt itself, just that others liked substituting them in other components that also used the 6P1 and 6J1

Opnly,
I have no intentions on selling my Carina., at leaset not now! As you know, it is bodacious with the Horns! Rich, spacious, detailed, open, smooth, and responsive to tube options too numerous to mention. But, the Miniwatt is good too. It isnt broken in by a long shot, but I like what I hear. Not as a function of price, but the way it sounds for so few hours on it, and having tubes that may not be the best for it. Nothing against chineses tubes in general: I love the TAD EL84 and 5AR4 in the Carina, and hate the stock JJs. Yes, the Carina has well over 500 hours on it (to include about 100 hours from the Isotek break-in CD), so it is too early to critically compare to the Miniwatt. One review compared the Miniwatt to a Decware Zen. To me, at this stage, it sounds more like the Transcendent Sound SEOTL/GG combo I had before buying the Carina! The Carina gives more tuning options then the SEOTL/GG that I like. It does some things better, while the SEOTL/GG did other things better. I chose the Carina in the end.

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floobydust Member Offline AudiophileTalk Rules! Posts: 56	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #62 - Jul 25^th, 2009, 10:45pm Once mine comes in I'll run a set of specs on it and post here, simple confirmation of published specs and also show a square-wave response scope image. Too bad it's 8-ohms only on the output but should provide much fun. Regards, KM
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Ed

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #63 - Jul 25^th, 2009, 11:22pm

Hey guys,
This is a nice thread we got goin'. Here's what I think right now..... the MW is killer. What is it better than? Hell, who knows!

Mine was a gift from my buddy Bill. What would I pay for one? A lot if I did not know better. Mine has no hum and again, simply sounds right......

It cost so little and the synergy is there. Please understand I have no interest in "discovering an amp of the month". Every now and again something "special" comes along. This is one case, in my opinion.

I don't know how long it will last, anything about the tubes, or any of the specs. It just sounds "right" and has enough power for me with the Horns.

Please do report your findings.......don't be shy if you disagree with me! It's no big deal.

Here's my last thought.....how can it possibly get cheaper at this level of performance? Well, that was my second to last thought, the last one is that I'd pay 10 times (or 20) the amount for an American made amp that sounds as sweet and I and many of you have done just that and I personally have no regrets about it and neither should you..... on the other hand, this thing is just too cheap not to get one if a fellow is looking for a "good sounding amp".

Ed

Designing a loudspeaker is very easy, building one that actually sounds good is much harder.

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nitpicker.

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #64 - Jul 26^th, 2009, 12:31am

opnly_bafld wrote on Jul 25^th, 2009, 9:33pm:

nitpicker. wrote on Jul 25^th, 2009, 8:16pm:

In general (not necessarily related to the subject in discussion), it's not hard to tell about the person by the content of one's post on internet forum. At least not for me.

You think you know.
That can be a problem for people like you.
How others perceive us is usually more honest/accurate than our own self examination. Grin

Grin

Edit- V..Bike beat me to it (he covered the long version and I handled the short version).

One thing is for certain, you are not to be taken seriously.

opnly_bafld wrote on Jan 10^th, 2009, 8:16pm:

I have made a vow as of 8:15 PM on 1-10-09 to never again reply to a nitpicker post.

If I forget this very important thing, please chastise me with the greatest severity.

Thank you,
Lin Wink

Wink

Have you deleted your post quoted by me? Why, out of embarrassment?

opnly_bafld wrote on Mar 11^th, 2009, 6:45pm:

nitpicker. wrote on Mar 11^th, 2009, 6:23pm:

Far less than you have.

There you go again nit prejudging people. Cry

Cry

Lin

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #65 - Jul 26^th, 2009, 12:35am

VolleynBike wrote on Jul 25^th, 2009, 9:14pm:

I've found that in any cross section of people there's always a very small percentage that seem to be the ones that make things go flat. These forums are a prime example. People like this put on a pretense of "logic", "discussion", "careful thinking", etc. But if you observe carefully, it all seems to just be some sort of underhanded attempt to undo whatever others may be saying or doing.

They pull apart every little inconsequential statement by trying to pull you into "proving it", or trying to get you to change your wording, or trying to give some argument as to how it couldn't be, etc. These tend to be the most exasperating interactions. At least until people spot it for what it is.

And interesting enough, these people never really have anything constructive to say or add themselves. They seem to thrive on undoing what is said by people who DO have something constructive to contribute, or have actually accomplished something.

They just carp and criticize, usually covertly. And they make so little sense themselves that people get sucked into "helping them understand". Which inevitably is a wasted effort. They never really do, in fact it just starts the whole cycle over again.

End of editorial. Back to the subject at hand:

Except that you don't know who you were writing about.

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giorgino Ex Member	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #66 - Jul 26^th, 2009, 5:56am nitpicker. wrote on Jul 26^th, 2009, 12:35am: Except that you don't know who you were writing about. But do you? You might want to follow your own advice... nitpicker. wrote on Jul 25^th, 2009, 8:16pm: Bit of extra thinking may go a long way.
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phitmein Member Offline AudiophileTalk Rules! Posts: 42	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #67 - Jul 26^th, 2009, 7:38am Why does the term Nit Wit seem most apt to me more than once here on this forum ??? And George, I ain't talking about you cuz ... Sorry Nit, but you have to be one of the most negitive people that I have ever seen ... It must suck in my book ...
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opnly_bafld A Contributing Member Offline Music is good! Posts: 1166 x1\|west central Illinois\|USA\|U	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #68 - Jul 26^th, 2009, 8:08am Luvdemhorns, I was just joking with Ed. I may pick up a Miniwatt someday, but the Carina isn't going anywhere. Lin
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giorgino Ex Member	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #69 - Jul 26^th, 2009, 8:26am opnly_bafld wrote on Jul 26^th, 2009, 8:08am: I may pick up a Miniwatt someday, but the Carina isn't going anywhere. Ditto....
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Doorman A Contributing Member Offline "pouring from the empty into the void" Posts: 1368 x1\|Royston\|Canada\|Canada\|48\|35	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #70 - Jul 26^th, 2009, 9:25am However, if you do happen to be looking for a new home for your Carina(s) guys--- Don
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nitpicker. Senior Member Offline Posts: 857 Decware home state (Illinois)	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #71 - Jul 26^th, 2009, 9:41am giorgino wrote on Jul 26^th, 2009, 5:56am: But do you? How can you ask? I wasn't writing about someone. It was a direct reply to the poster. Bit of extra thinking (before responding) may go a long way giorgino.
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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #72 - Jul 26^th, 2009, 9:45am

phitmein wrote on Jul 26^th, 2009, 7:38am:

Sorry Nit, but you have to be one of the most negitive people that I have ever seen ...

It must suck in my book ... Cry

Cry

No one can top you in that department. Lighten up, Francis. Kiss

Kiss

phitmein wrote on Jan 10^th, 2009, 1:55am:

"Been around a while, seen it all and dealt with all"

yeah right ... walk a mile in my shoes ... nit-wit ...

Phitonit

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #73 - Jul 26^th, 2009, 9:59am

nitpicker. wrote on Jul 26^th, 2009, 9:41am:

How can you ask? I wasn't writing about someone. It was a direct reply to the poster.

Bit of extra thinking (before responding) may go a long way giorgino.

VolleynBike knew who he was talking about but you did not get the inference with your reply to him. Must it be SPELLED out to you or can you practice what you preach?

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Luvdemhorns

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #74 - Jul 26^th, 2009, 12:10pm

I agree with Ed ( and dont want to hijack his thread!), the level of performance to price is stunning! I'm just amazed the MW's signature is so close to the SEOTL/GG combo, for 1/5 the used Audiogon price I paid. Ed's Horns themselves also represent (to me) a stunning price/performance feat.
But the would've/could've/should've of purchasing my past and current equipment is moot because they're already purchased (and some sold), and the MW wasnt available at the time. I always have time to listen to the manufacturer of a product I like, who talks about an inexpensive component that he likes with his product! Hence, the MW purchase (and the sell of a few tubes, power cords and such that I have laying around unused!).
The beauty of new finds is this: The Horms told me that if I like the single driver and horn concepts, I can have it at an affordable price. The MW tells me if I like the signature of a more expensive product, I can have it at an affordable price. Would I sell the Carina because of the MW? No, because that would take me back to a signature I liked, but have already moved away from to a signature I like better! The MW tells me what others are doing affordably, as did my purchases of products made by Ed, Decware, MAC, Clear Day, and Herbie. At the price of the MW, I can have two signatures for the price of one, and see where the state of the art is going. What a hobby!

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Luvdemhorns Member Offline AudiophileTalk Rules! Posts: 29	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #75 - Jul 26^th, 2009, 12:13pm I need to spell chack more... Horns, NOT Horms!
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Ed YaBB Moderator Offline Posts: 1696	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #76 - Jul 26^th, 2009, 1:39pm Luv, You got it! Am I going to dump all my "expensive" stuff for the MW? Heck no, that would be insane. I like the stuff I have and the MW has not changed that....but boy am I glad I got one! Thanks again "Bermuda Bill" Ed
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giorgino

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #77 - Jul 26^th, 2009, 1:43pm

Okay, is the MW good for the price or good at any price?

I mean - we had a period of time when the Tripath amp was touted as the "real deal" but in reality it was very good initially but when you live with it for long enough, you start to hear the limitations. Is the Miniwatt an amp you'd buy with the Horns to get you started before you shelled out for a "real" amp?

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #78 - Jul 26^th, 2009, 3:17pm

George,
The $100 Griffin Power Wave and the original Tri Path $29 amp were giant killers. Way better than a lot of tube and SS stuff. And I was on that scene many. many years ago, long before many companies that now exist. The "problem" began when people thought that "upgrading and modifying" the cheap digital stuff would make them into things they were not. To date I have not heard a single digital amp that has caused me to keep it, regardless of cost.
Sure the PW and T Path were fun....but they cost NOTHING.......and as far as I am concerned are not that much worse than stuff being sold for 20 times their cost. I have never heard a digital amp equal the best Decware stuff....no matter what it cost.

The MW absolutely KILLS any digital amp I have heard at any price PERIOD.

Read that again.

Now, if one wants to start "upgrading" it to the point it costs what a "real" amp does I bet you can guess how I feel about that.

I will NOT be tube rolling, I will not be "upgrading or modifying" it.

I WILL buy spare tubes.

It's the real deal. Hope this helps and as always....just my opinion!

Ed

Designing a loudspeaker is very easy, building one that actually sounds good is much harder.

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Luvdemhorns

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #79 - Jul 26^th, 2009, 3:30pm

George,
Good questions. I would say yes, if that is the sound someone is looking for, or doesnt mind living with until they find another amp. If someone is looking to get into tubes for the old lush tube sound, then I would say no, regardless of price, because one would already be buying a "limitation". If it isnt the sound one wants, $229 or $1299 makes no difference. If the the sound signature starts several hundred dollars higher (which is possible with old American gear or new Chinese gear) I would start there. Problem/fun would be, where is there?
I've been on the rollercoaster of more expensive must sound better, less expensive must sound bad, less expensive sounds beter because I paid less for it, more expensive sounds better because I paid more for it, etc. I guess at the end of the day what works is what works!
I've heard of the Tripaths, but never listened to one. But then again, I havent listened to anything over the price of the SEOTL/GG, and couldnt begin to talk intelligently about "any price" gear! (I paid more for the Carina, but thats because I bought the TS gear used even though it lists higher then the Carina).

Now, the MW. I ran it overnight for 12 hours with the Isotek disk. It has smoothed out even more. I also noticed the ZCD's hot output (5 volts) shows through on some recordings that the Carina handled fine. It obviously prefers a normal output level. Decware noted that problem with other gear a long time ago and began offering an adjustable output voltage.

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #80 - Jul 26^th, 2009, 7:29pm

So all the off topic BS aside, the general consensus is that most think the Miniwatt is a great value. And it approaches the "sound quality" of such notable amps as the Carina, Decware, and TS SE-OTL. Guys I'm sure it's pretty good and darn cheap to boot. I'm going to wait until after the new wears off and then read the new comments. Remember the high praise reviews the Glow amp received. I'm not trying to rain on the parade, and at its price, nobody is going to regret the purchase.

More and more I suspect that correctly designed amps sound similar within reasonable power and impedance limits. Like the load of the Horns.

Steve F

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #81 - Jul 26^th, 2009, 7:48pm

giorgino wrote on Jul 26^th, 2009, 9:59am:

VolleynBike knew who he was talking about but you did not get the inference with your reply to him. Must it be SPELLED out to you or can you practice what you preach?

How about you give him some time to answer or do whatever he may end up doing?

By the way, aren't you the guy who endorsed Brilliant Pebbles? http://www.audiophiletalk.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1203217791 Do you still?

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killabermudian Member Offline AudiophileTalk Rules! Posts: 23	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #82 - Jul 26^th, 2009, 8:54pm Good Evening Ed: Too many accolades! Thank You very much Ed! When you guys purchase a unit, I have no afilliation with ALO.com. Its cheap and its fun.I'm just a simple CATV technician of 28 years. Thank You, Bermudabill
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Luvdemhorns

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #83 - Jul 26^th, 2009, 9:52pm

Good Points Steve! No parade here!
Let me wax a la 6 moons for a while! I think I need to clarify something. So close to the "signature" of the SEOTL/GG is what I hear, not neccessarily sound quality (although at this stage I think the quality is quite good). Its striking to me because I owned and remember well the combo, and Bruce is well respected in his OTL designs and the GG.
To me, signature is like being in the same family or genre. I've had different old Alfa Romeos during the past 20 years, and whether its a V6 or inline 4, 1974 or 1994, they all had that signature Alfa engine sound, vibe, and "revability," that thing that made you want to tak off from work and drive. Matter of fact, most old Italian cars shared those traits. Its hard to describe...but you knew when a Lancia, Maserati, Ferrari , Fiat or Alfa went by, as opposed to an Austin Healy, Triumph, MGB, or 911, BMW Z4, Audi A8. However, the trade-off is often price, reliability, modern comfort, cost of repairs, etc. Audi, Mercedes, BMW similar signatures, like in interior design and comfort . Now, the quality and performance of all these cars are all over the board, by manufacturer, between models, by production year, etc. Is all about ones preference, priorities, etc. To some, the Porche 911 has no substitute. To others, that Turbo Mini Cooper is the fun all to be all! But I'm sure if both drivers are auto enthusiasts they would be curious about each others car Wink

Wink

Back to audio. Now, the Carina....not even remotely the same signature (to me!) as the SEOTL/GG or MW. And its the Carina signature I prefer (as Eddie Vaughn says.."meat on them bones", but with great soundstaging, clarity. richness, etc.) The multiple options with tone, function, and tube choices just add so much icing to the cake! MW is no seconding coming of the Carina! How close is it to the SEOTL/GG? I think very close. But that combo was not my final preference; I ultimately came to the Carina. The difference now is I'm not looking to replace it...just curious about the MW. It may ultimately be a Yugo or a Porsche, but at the end of the day I'm going home in the Alfa!

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #84 - Jul 27^th, 2009, 1:34am

Luvdemhorns i like how you characterized the whole MW vs the higher quality stuff scene. I have a curiosity myself about how these little guys will stand up against my "HIGHLY MODIFIED" (hehe...) Fisher. And knowing me, by the time the warranty is up i'll have them opened up and playing with the innards.

I suspect (before having heard them) that one of the main things they have going for them design-wise is the fact they are so low in power, and they are single ended. Low power is easier to drive and keep linear. Ultralinear circuits are not known for their great linearity or clarity, but i've never heard of Ultralinear being used in an SE amp (not that it hasn't be done - i just haven't heard of it.) One of Ultralinear's biggest weak points is their behavior is in the zero cross-over region. SE doesn't have a zero cross-over region per se. I find that an intriguing combination of concepts.

Quote:

How about you give him some time to answer or do whatever he may end up doing?

Nit, i don't know what you're expecting, but i don't intend to waste any more breath about you. In my book you are an anti-social type personality. I think you would find yourself much happier if you hung around alt.psychology.here-have_a_pill crowd. They would be in awe to your intellectual prowess and sympathize with you about how poorly you've been treated here. Your leaving would be a breath of fresh air. But i suspect that's exactly why you won't.

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giorgino

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #85 - Jul 27^th, 2009, 4:09am

nitpicker. wrote on Jul 26^th, 2009, 7:48pm:

How about you give him some time to answer or do whatever he may end up doing?

SPELLED out enough for you or do you need more time to think?

Quote:

By the way, aren't you the guy who endorsed Brilliant Pebbles? http://www.audiophiletalk.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1203217791 Do you still?

There's a perfectly on-topic thread you can *BUMP* to the top if you're that interested. You're a mature enough a forum member to understand that concept, no?

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giorgino

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #86 - Jul 27^th, 2009, 4:56am

Nice analogy Luvdemhorns. Ive got a sense on your priorities and also where the MW is in your audio food chain. For me, the Carina has been the end of a line of many amps and audio experiences. As such, I'm much more confident in what I don't want in my system and can identify that relatively quickly. There's still a curiosity about different hifi components except that they they don't stick around too long if they're not what I'm after (not that they're no good).

Ed wrote on Jul 26^th, 2009, 3:17pm:

Now, if one wants to start "upgrading" it to the point it costs what a "real" amp does I bet you can guess how I feel about that.
I will NOT be tube rolling, I will not be "upgrading or modifying" it.

Yep - gotcha - Thanks Ed

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JimR Seasoned Member Offline AudiophileTalk Rules! Posts: 144 Boulder, CO	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #87 - Jul 27^th, 2009, 6:49am VolleynBike, I hear what you're saying about UL mode and I generally prefer pure triode or pentode in an SE amp, but the Carina with it's EL84 in UL is an exception to the rule and is very sweet. PP UL, as you say, is another animal altogether and very few of these amps have ever done it for me. -- Jim
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JimR Seasoned Member Offline AudiophileTalk Rules! Posts: 144 Boulder, CO	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #88 - Jul 27^th, 2009, 6:50am Ed, So, got any bright ideas on how to connect a magic cable to the MW? Assuming I don't want to butcher the banana terminations on my SCs? -- Jim
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VolleynBike

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #89 - Jul 27^th, 2009, 10:24am

JimR,

Ah! So not only has UL in SE been done before, but it's common. And if that's the mode the Carina runs in, then obviously well respected too. I have to plead late comer and ignorant here. I'm late on the SE bandwagon. I spent too many years playing with push-pull hybrid amps. But as budget will allow, that will change.

My current dream project is to build one of Jack Elliano's DRD amps. All triode and direct heater, with his 1/2 silver OPT. But parts alone is a bit more cash than i can part with at the moment. My "temporary" has been the Fisher 500c that i mod'ed. But it's big, hot, ugly with age, and falling apart after nearly 50 years. Yet a lovely sounding amp.

Enter the MW as another "temporary", and something new to play with.

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #90 - Jul 27^th, 2009, 10:59am

giorgino wrote on Jul 27^th, 2009, 4:09am:

There's a perfectly on-topic thread you can *BUMP* to the top if you're that interested. You're a mature enough a forum member to understand that concept, no?

It's no different from what you posted. Just letting you see it.

giorgino wrote on Jul 26^th, 2009, 5:56am:

But do you? You might want to follow your own advice...

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #91 - Jul 27^th, 2009, 11:08am

VolleynBike wrote on Jul 27^th, 2009, 1:34am:

Nit, i don't know what you're expecting, but i don't intend to waste any more breath about you.

VolleynBike, don't try to weasel out of it. You don't know what / who you were talking about when you replied in blue letters a few pages back. Prove me wrong. Point it out the samples and who it belongs to.

Quote:

In my book you are an anti-social type personality. I think you would find yourself much happier if you hung around alt.psychology.here-have_a_pill crowd. They would be in awe to your intellectual prowess and sympathize with you about how poorly you've been treated here. Your leaving would be a breath of fresh air. But i suspect that's exactly why you won't.

And please do the same for this assumption as well. I have my doubts about a new member acting like he knows so much about an existing member and the forum. Again, prove me wrong.

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #92 - Jul 27^th, 2009, 11:12am

VolleynBike,

Yes, the DRD amps can be quite good, but if you're using the Horns the partial silver secondaries may not do much good for you -- where they really shine is with very high efficiency, >1xx dB, but then again, the M3s could be a good candidate.

Another amp to give a look at is the Bottlehead Paramounts as well as the Decware mini Torii SE.

Well, I had to see what all the fuss is, so I just broke down and ordered a S1 for myself. Once my Lowthers arrive the Carina will be pressed into service in the living room until I can build or otherwise acquire a top notch DHT amp.

Wish Eddie would make those plans for a sweet 2A3 come to life Cheesy

Cheesy

.

-- Jim

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VolleynBike Member Offline Simplicity is the most difficult of concepts Posts: 66	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #93 - Jul 27^th, 2009, 11:12am To Nit: Click - Ignore.
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nitpicker. Senior Member Offline Posts: 857 Decware home state (Illinois)	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #94 - Jul 27^th, 2009, 6:22pm VolleynBike wrote on Jul 27^th, 2009, 11:12am: To Nit: Click - Ignore. Perhaps you are admitting that you've bitten more than you can chew.
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giorgino

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #95 - Jul 27^th, 2009, 6:35pm

nitpicker. wrote on Jul 27^th, 2009, 10:59am:

It's no different from what you posted. Just letting you see it.

No, Nit. You were asking 2 questions. You know the concept — sentences that end with a question mark... Wink

Wink

nitpicker. wrote on Jul 26^th, 2009, 7:48pm:

By the way, aren't you the guy who endorsed Brilliant Pebbles? http://www.audiophiletalk.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1203217791 Do you still?

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #96 - Jul 27^th, 2009, 8:08pm

JimR wrote on Jul 27^th, 2009, 11:12am:

VolleynBike,

Yes, the DRD amps can be quite good, but if you're using the Horns the partial silver secondaries may not do much good for you -- where they really shine is with very high efficiency, >1xx dB, but then again, the M3s could be a good candidate.

Another amp to give a look at is the Bottlehead Paramounts as well as the Decware mini Torii SE.

Well, I had to see what all the fuss is, so I just broke down and ordered a S1 for myself. Once my Lowthers arrive the Carina will be pressed into service in the living room until I can build or otherwise acquire a top notch DHT amp.

Wish Eddie would make those plans for a sweet 2A3 come to life Cheesy

Cheesy

.

-- Jim

Jim, you're going to have to help me here. I'm surprised by the statement that the horn's efficiency isn't high enough to make the silver secondary worthwhile. Without actually hearing it (but only "rationalizing" it - hate that) i might buy that the benefit might not be as quite much. But "not do much good"? Have you heard this, or are you speculating?

I have read about the Paramount for some time now. But the mini Torii SE is something new. Very different beasts by the looks of them, with the Paramounts being based on the Elliano concept that has intrigued me so much.

And which Eddie with what 2A3 plans are you referring to?

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giorgino

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #97 - Jul 27^th, 2009, 8:19pm

VolleynBike wrote on Jul 27^th, 2009, 8:08pm:

...I'm surprised by the statement that the horn's efficiency isn't high enough to make the silver secondary worthwhile. Without actually hearing it (but only "rationalizing" it - hate that) i might buy that the benefit might not be as quite much. But "not do much good"? Have you heard this, or are you speculating?

Hi VolleynBike - Here's a link to Eddie's website on PSSS Output Transformers. Hope this helps. While the "gotsta know" part of me wants to try it out on the Carina, my "I'm happy with my kit" part of me just wants to keep every thing as is.

JimR wrote on Jul 27^th, 2009, 11:12am:

...where they really shine is with very high efficiency, >1xx dB, but then again, the M3s could be a good candidate

Just out of curiosity, I'd love to know what sensitivity are the Model 3s.

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VolleynBike Member Offline Simplicity is the most difficult of concepts Posts: 66	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #98 - Jul 28^th, 2009, 12:59am I'm so bummed to discover i need speakers even more efficient than HornShoppe's to experience the silver secondaries =(
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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #99 - Jul 28^th, 2009, 8:22am

VollynBike,

If it's any consolation, I don't believe they will be detrimental in anyway, and may even give a slight improvement in very low level detail retreival at low listening levels. I'd like to try them myself but don't expect to have a super sensitive speaker here anytime -- no room in this small house, and the good ones are way out of my budget.

Eddie, as far as I know doesn't have any concrete plans for a DHT production amp, but he does make reference to the fact that he'll come up with one someday in his write-up on the Carina. That's all -- I have no inside information that any such beast is actually in the works.

One other note, Jack's DRD topology is quite different from the Paramount design in that the latter is a parallel-feed output design -- in it's most oversimplified form, this topology takes the DC offset off the output core by use of a large plate choke, so the OPT can be smaller and not have to deal with the core saturation effect of the offset. This also means that exotic core materials like nickel can be used to good effect, but it also means that you need a really big parafeed cap on the OPT to block the DC component -- always a tradeoff somewhere. Cheesy

Cheesy

Some people love parafeed, some hate it, some love DRD, some hate it. I'm currently building my first parafeed amp, so we'll see what happens when I'm done. Both camps have good and poor examples and you'd really just have to listen to a good implementation of each to see what you like. My take is that both *may* have a little something extra to offer over traditional series feed, but I'm sure there are exceptions there too.

Having choices is nice, but can be hard on the wallet.

-- Jim

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #100 - Jul 28^th, 2009, 9:59pm

JimR - Oh yeah, that's right, i forgot the paramounts are parafeed. But parafeed is something i want to stay away from. My idea is build around avoiding zero-crossing. A transformer operating in parafeed still has to go through zero. Sure you could use powdered iron core Roll Eyes

Roll Eyes

or something, but you still have to go through zero. That's what i want to avoid. And the less caps, the better. Hence DRD...

Ordered the MW today. Play time this weekend if they ship on time. Cool

Cool

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #101 - Jul 28^th, 2009, 10:14pm

Good Evening Everyone:
I have discovered this evening that if you disco the top plates of The MiniWatt transformer covers,heat disipation has been cut down to 50%. Sonically I have detected an audible difference. My little MiniWatt has never sounded better! No tube rollin' yet. Ed. Can you read or hear this!
Thanks,
Bermudabill

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Luvdemhorns Member Offline AudiophileTalk Rules! Posts: 29	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #102 - Jul 28^th, 2009, 11:37pm Hey Bermuda, Disco? You mean remove the top plates?
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killabermudian Member Offline AudiophileTalk Rules! Posts: 23	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #103 - Jul 28^th, 2009, 11:50pm Good Evening Luvdemhorns: What I mean by the top plates, is the bs covers that surround the transformers. I promise you if you remove these plates, heat wil not be come an issue. Thanks, Bermudabill
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SirSpeedy Member Offline AudiophileTalk Rules! Posts: 21	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #104 - Jul 29^th, 2009, 12:25am The top plates that are attached by four scews are glued on or something. I gashed the metal trying to seperate it. Were yours difficult to remove?
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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #105 - Jul 29^th, 2009, 12:43am

MIniWattt has been more detail,less harshness incredible soundstage.
How many of you audiophile hoots are out there! Please raise your hand if you can afford a simple 229.00 integrated amplifier.If not, please raise your hand if you feel like Obama is currently changing the course of our planet.(AL Gore bullshit global warming)
Ed, I dont know what the hell I'm talking about. I Love My Horns,
Bermudabill

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killabermudian

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #106 - Jul 29^th, 2009, 1:03am

Sirspeedy:
Here is how I addresed the top plate situation (don't panic) Take a hair dryer and heat as much as possible around the seams of the top plate. I think this is some type of plumbers sealent of some sort. I guess. I don't know,anyway I then took a utility knife or sheet rock knife and began to ream aroud the transformer cover were it meets the main housing.Be careful! As you know,the screws are phillips. Take your time and it will be rewarding--------sonically.
Bermudabill

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floobydust

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #107 - Jul 29^th, 2009, 9:26am

I ordered the Miniwatt over the weekend and it arrived today... I guess I got the last one in Black Wink

Wink

It's very cute.... fit and finish are quite good considering the cost but the volume knob doesn't spin quite true. Still, an amazing little bargain from a cost side. Next will be the initial power-on and some tests run to see how it performs on the bench.

Regards, KM

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floobydust

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #108 - Jul 29^th, 2009, 10:56am

Okay.... first, let's NOT shoot the messenger.... but, I've done basic tests on the Miniwatt as I do on ALL of my own designs using the exact same equipment, hookups, levels, etc.

Equipment used includes:
Heathkit IG-5218 Sine-Square oscillator
HP 654C Sine Oscillator
HP 334A Distortion Analyzer
HP 400FL AC voltmeter (2 of them)
Fluke 8060A Digital True-RMS meter
Tektronix 2215A Dual-trace Oscilloscope

Both 8-ohm and 16-ohm (non-inductive) loads were used and test frequencies from 20Hz to 50KHz at multiple output levels. I kept the tests simple but direct and accurately measured.

So, how does it fare????

Output noise started low and increased as it warmed up (about an hour) and has crept up to 950 microvolts RMS on the left and 1millivolt RMS on the right which, referenced to 1-watt into 8-ohms, the signal-to-noise is ~69dB. The spec is listed as 0.8mv (or 800 microvolts) so it missed this by a small amount. Voltage gain was about 17.5dB and within 0.25dB between channels, claimed is 18dB. Also note that there a slight positive DC offset of 2mv on each channel.

Frequency response at 1-watt into 8-ohms extended beyond 40KHz but had a noticeable peak around 30KHz. Useful lower frequency response (@ 1-watt) was 100Hz but I would not consider it clean below this.

Distortion measurement @ 1-watt output @ 1KHz:
- 8-ohm load = 3.5% THD
- 16-ohm load = 1.5% THD

There is noticeable waveform compression on the positive swing before 3Vrms into 8-ohms. This continues while the negative swing keeps accuracy but only until 3.5Vrms... by 3.9Vrms the negative swing is clipping and the positive is already long toasted. Pushing to 4Vrms into 8-ohm (2-watts per channel) shows >8% THD.

The above places useful output power of only 1-watt and clipping before 1.5-watts with either or both channels driven. Both measured distortion and waveform linearity are much better into a 16-ohm load than the rated 8-ohm loading. Distortion at 2-watts is simply too high coupled with poor and non-symmetrical and non-linear output waveform.

I also ran a simple square-wave test using 1KHz and 10KHz signals. 1KHz showed some overshoot and noticeable ringing. 10Khz was much worse. So.... so much for measurements. I'll hook it up to some speakers next and give it a listen.

Regards, KM

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SirSpeedy Member Offline AudiophileTalk Rules! Posts: 21	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #109 - Jul 29^th, 2009, 11:58am Can upgrading the stock tubes have a positive affect on those figures being reported?
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floobydust

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #110 - Jul 29^th, 2009, 12:19pm

Not a clue.... yet. I don't know those tube types but if they have standard (aka USA) replacements it might be worth a try... or take a look at the circuitry and see what gives... or not. I don't suspect mine is defective or different, but the power rating of 2.5 watts was not specified as RMS either.

Now... a quick listen has shown it sounds okay... have not done anything beyond listening to a track seated... and it was okay. Time will tell but for $229, it's still a bargain. I guess I'll burn it in a bit more and then hook the Horns up.

Regards, KM

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Ed

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #111 - Jul 29^th, 2009, 5:22pm

Kev,
Shoot the messenger? Ha, you know better than that. You've provided useful info and we appreciate it. Mine did not come with a "manual". The one I have sounds great at volumes the measurements don't jive with. But that's OK! Let us know how it sounds with the Horns. Please do play them for a few days first very hard, if they have been sitting idle for a while otherwise I assure you they will not be what some of us are hearing.

Thanks for the report!
Ed
ps...I guess I'll take the tops of the x formers....arrrgh...I hate "tweaking"! This sound reasonable from a heat standpoint at least.

And remember this people.....94 db efficiency (as the Horns were measured to be by John Atkinson for Stereophile, NOT placed in corners) Is for ONE speaker.....we use two...and two channels of amplification.....so the system can play at levels one may not first realize because we always think..."94 db with x watts" and in reality that is not what we actually have. We have two channels, at that performance. Our listening levels can easily exceed what one would think on quick glance based on "94db@X watts" simply because we have 2 channels.

I measure actual output of song's peak reading before I can hear "distortion". But Hell, I'm old.

Ed

Designing a loudspeaker is very easy, building one that actually sounds good is much harder.

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Cheerwino Seasoned Member Offline AudiophileTalk Rules! Posts: 173	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #112 - Jul 29^th, 2009, 9:13pm So what is under the top plate on the transformer? Is it just in a little box, then, covering the actual transformer? Or is it filled with some kind of mysterious nougat-like substance?
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pardales

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #113 - Aug 3^rd, 2009, 1:57pm

JimR wrote on Jul 27^th, 2009, 6:50am:

Ed,

So, got any bright ideas on how to connect a magic cable to the MW? Assuming I don't want to butcher the banana terminations on my SCs?

-- Jim

Good question, Jim.

I am very impressed by the MW having listened to it for 5 days now. I received a pretty well broken-in unit that is out on tour. I have found nothing harsh or displeasing about the sound and, truth be told, have found myself quite engaged and listening to whole albums when I initially sat down to listen to a song or two.

I'll be shipping the MW off in a few days to its next stop and then will get back to my Carina. I'll know more then. No doubt though, this thing is a bargain.

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4season

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #114 - Aug 22^nd, 2009, 5:39pm

Hi folks, this is my first post, and I hope I'm not committing a heresy, but I not only measured my (APPJ-branded) amplifier, but I came up with a mod which makes a measurable improvement, it costs 58 cents, and IMHO, there are no sonic downsides, only improvements Cheesy

Cheesy

Not to be a tease, but the forum software won't let me link to my photos on my first post. Stay tuned.

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VolleynBike Member Offline Simplicity is the most difficult of concepts Posts: 66	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #115 - Aug 22^nd, 2009, 5:47pm Do tell? Cap across the feedback resistor?
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4season

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Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW
Reply #116 - Aug 22^nd, 2009, 5:54pm

Let's see if the forum will let me link to the photos now.

Stock amplifier measured with 10 ohm load resistor at 1 khz:

And at 10 khz

With the aid of a schematic that I found on a Chinese web site, I located the feedback loop resistors and installed a 330 pf capacitor across it. I used COG-type monolithic ceramic, 330 picofarads. Digi-Key item 399-4468-1-ND. I used an SMD rework station to install them, but I could have as easily used a standard iron and soldered it between the tube socket and the output transformer.

Modded amp at 1 khz:

And at 10 khz:

And finally, frequency response of the modded amp:

Square waves hold their shape pretty nicely from well beyond 20 khz, down to around 280 khz, after which, they look more triangular.

Sonically, the dryness I noticed when listening to screechy jazz or other music with lots of high frequency content is gone, and tonality is much improved.

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earplay My System: Seasoned Member Offline Posts: 175 Phase 2, Del Boca Vista	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #117 - Aug 23^rd, 2009, 12:24pm 4season, I can't read a schematic, but I can solder. I'm seeing 3 caps. Is that right?
Back to top	Best wishes, earplay iTunes> Wireworld UV USB IC> HRT Streamer+> MAC AgQ Palladium IC> CIA VPC3> massaged Cary Sweet 807 (RCA Blackplate 5U4's... yumm!)> MAC AgCu> massaged Monitor Audio 852's IP Logged

4season New Member Offline AudiophileTalk Rules! Posts: 14	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #118 - Aug 23^rd, 2009, 1:44pm earplay wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2009, 12:24pm: I can't read a schematic, but I can solder. I'm seeing 3 caps. Is that right? No, only two (they are the yellow devices). Jeff
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earplay My System: Seasoned Member Offline Posts: 175 Phase 2, Del Boca Vista	Re: MINIWATT....WOW>>WOW>>>WOW Reply #119 - Aug 23^rd, 2009, 2:13pm 4season, Thanks. Now I see there is a mirror-effect. Does anyone know if MiniWatts can be bridged for bi-amping?
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